telophase: (Default)
telophase ([personal profile] telophase) wrote2006-09-17 02:16 pm
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Notes on the elements of a powerful ending:

Since it's Sunday, I expect I won't get much give-and-take on this: people tend to be more talky on Mondays and least talky on the weekends, but I'm at the ref desk and in dire need of entertainment, so I'm putting it up.

Notes on the elements of a powerful ending:
  • The characters do not get everything they wanted/needed/fought for - bittersweet, rather than fully triumphant. A sacrifice is all-too-real.


  • Not everything is explained - questions are left open for the viewer's/reader's mind to wander about it.


What other things go into creating powerful endings for you? For me, something doesn't always have to be bittersweet - in the book Bridge of Birds, the ending is unabashedly, gloriously, over-the-top fairy-tale, but I think it's because it's piled on so thick that I think it works. But I haven't run across anything like that in manga yet. :D

ETA: And obviously, the focus is more on manga and anime, but bring books in if you want, like I did above. I think Lord of the Rings is the canonical exmaple that everyone by now knows of for the powerful, bittersweet ending, with the notion that sacrifice is real, and that the person who makes the greatest sacrifice is not the person who reaps the most rewards: and that it has to be that way for the sacrifice to mean something.

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Because this is such a minefield since we're all in various stages of having-seen and not-having-seen anime and manga, if you discuss particular series, PLEASE USE SPOILER PROTECTION - extra space isn't enough, preferably use color-on-color, like this:

<span style="color: #999999;background-color: #999999">Spoilery text goes here.</span>

which produces:

Spoilery text goes here.

And mention which series you're spoiling first, so we know not to highlight it. :) If you fail to use spoiler protection for plot points, I'm deleting the comment.

ETA: If you can't highlight, it's apparently a glitch in the new LJ Horizon thing. Details here in the comments.
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Princess Tutu:

This is the series that got me thinking this way - Duck (and Fakir as well) succeeds in her stated goal, which is to rescue the Prince, but she sacrifices her human self and her chance at human love. Fakir retires to a small cottage with her duck-self, which is a shadow of the happiness that they - and we - wanted.

Fullmetal Alchemist:

Ed gets his brother's body back, at the sacrifice of becoming trapped in our world. (I'm at work right now and got distracted when composing this, so I forgot what else I was going to put here.)

Death Note (spoilers for chapter 58 as well):

DN had a sort of unsatisfying ending, but I'm not sure it could have been any better. Light got to go out like the ranting, raving villain that he was, but there wasn't any real denouement or catharsis. It was more affecting back in chapter 58 when L died, because he learned that he was proven right, as he lay dying - a big sacrifice there, especially since so much of his work was left undone. At the final end, the sacrifice is Mello's, but he's not really been a central sympathetic character for so long, and his deliberate choice of sacrifice is revealed only in flashback, so that it's removed from us emotionally. Near doesn't sacrifice a thing, and yet wins on the backs of other people's sacrifices so he's not an especially sympathetic hero.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah - stories that end and leave no real room to go on tend not to work.

Antique Bakery:

Antique Bakery doesn't have a really powerful ending, but it's not a really powerful gut-punch of a series, and the ending fits, with the characters making a few decisions about their lives, and looking forward to the future. Even the Big Question of the series - Whatshisface's kidnapping as a child - gets answered in a completely different way than expected, and ends up being a beginning, rather than an ending.
octopedingenue: (mugen = infinity)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-17 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Samurai Champloo:

Everybody you want to live makes it out of the fight alive, and it works because they care about being alive for the first time--they've had reasons to fight, now they have reasons to live, and people to live to see again. And you KNOW that living is going to be the hard part for them, so it would only cheapen the ending to kill somebody off for the shock value.

A broader topic, only tangentially related, so I don't think it needs spoilercutting: I really like the theme(s) that runs strongly through a lot of manga/anime, of wanting/having/finding "something/someone to protect; a precious person," etc. Done crudely, it can be incredibly sexist and condescending, e.g. "I am a big strong manly shonen man and I will protect you from evil because you are a weak dumb helpless little girlygirl utterly unable to fend for yourself!" Done well, it can be [Naruto] GAARA [/Naruto] incredibly moving and life-affirming, as simple as throwing yourself in front of a bullet or training harder, or as subtle as being more cautious and sensible. It's all fun and games being a loner ninja person of variable badassity levels but with a romantically reckless death wish, until you pick up a precious person or two, who you'd really rather would stop putting their stupid sacrificial asses in danger trying to save yours, who you'd actually prefer to bitch at over breakfast tomorrow rather than either of you being dead, and to whom you realize you'd really rather not give the sucky job of identifying your body.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 09:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been known for being snarky about the whole 'precious person' thing, since it does lead to the one-partner-active and one-partner-passive thing too often, but I do appreciate when it's done well: (I'm not counting this as a spoiler when it's out of context) when the Third Hokage gently points out to Naruto that for the Hokage, his 'precious person' is the entire village.
octopedingenue: (naruto start as you mean to go on)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-17 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)
When one's precious person is an entire village, one must throw oneself in front of deadly projectiles to protect Random Guy and still get up and make sure nobody else gets deadly projectiled on your watch, even if you're bleeding out. Which is why Hokages learn early to walk on water.

[identity profile] tammylee.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
*spews tea at the monitor*
hahahah! Very well said.

[identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Also... um, tangentially related... is the story where the goal the heroes have been working toward for the entire series turns out to be, not unimportant, but less important than other things that have happened in the process of working toward that goal.

I don't trust myself to get the cuts right, so I will make up an example rather than citing a real one: a sports story in which the heroes spend the entire series working toward a championship, and learn and grow and form relationships and get stronger along the way. In such a story, an ending in which they don't win, or which concludes the instant the referee blows his whistle to start the game, might be just as satisfying or more so than one which concludes with them winning.

See also: http://rachelmanija.livejournal.com/255296.html

octopedingenue: (mugen evil laugh)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-18 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
Totally. "The journey is more important than the destination"--the premise behind some really bad road trip movies, as well as some stories that have owned my heart and soul. It's all in how you explore it.

On a tangent of a tangent of a tangent, Eyeshield 21 is surprisingly awesome. (I hate football! And still!)

I love that third alternative post. I love stories and characters that use it--I feel like I'm getting jolted with creativity as the reader.

[identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 02:09 am (UTC)(link)
Really, the football manga? Even if I hate football and don't know the rules and hate that you can't see anyone's faces or distinguish one person from another when they play?
octopedingenue: (hiruma is really really great (for porn))

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-18 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
OH ME TOO. And I still hate all of that and skim over the football game scenes worse than the biff-bam-pow in Naruto and Bleach.

But yes! The football manga! I am somewhat taken aback. But I want to hug them all and give them cookies, because the characters are all so cute and dorky and heartbreaking when I am not expecting it, and so individually odd. Like (example picked at random because I have pictorial evidence): Shin!

Shin = THE ENEMY OMG! Uber-powerful fearsome footballer for rival team of EEEVIL, held in fear and awe and trembling for his cunning and power! Uchiha Sasuke of the astroturf! Mighty athlete with manly brow!

Also enormous lovable loyal clueless dork with the street smarts of a duck and the ability certainty to destroy anything dependent on electrical power with a single touch. Shin!

Also the manga art can be oddly lovely once you get used to over-the-topness (haven't seen the anime, but the coloring makes me cry from horror), and the mangaka is funny and kind of evil. And among the heaps and heaps of endless interchangeable slash pairings, the most popular OTP (my icon) is lovehateteasesnark het!

I still have no idea what's going on in any of the football games, though.

[identity profile] cerusee.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 11:06 am (UTC)(link)
Uchiha Sasuke of the astroturf!

Now I'm calling him that in my head.
octopedingenue: (sasuke way way more special!)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-18 12:17 pm (UTC)(link)
You read ES21? I did not know that!

Technically the Sasuke-ness is split between Shin and Sakuraba--Shin has the talent and aloofness and more specialness, while Sakuraba has the fangirls and angst and inferiority complex. (♥ Sakuraba & Shin ♥)

[identity profile] cerusee.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 10:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I do! Which reminds me, I need to run out and get the new volumes.

Shin generally makes me swoon, but I always want to pet Sakuraba, whom life confounds.
octopedingenue: (havoc's going home to bang your sister!)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-18 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I am intrigued by your words and wish to subscribe to your manga fandom newsletter!

I've been reading Eyeshield mostly in scans (although I am about 20 volumes behind, as I am in every series I follow), but I do have volume 1 I got half off. On the one hand, I like holding the book in my hands better; on the other hand, I kinda miss Hiruma's foul mouth. (They can never license the anime for a preteen audience, can they.)

Shin is definitely swoon-worthy. I switch off between crushing on him and on Hiruma, who is obnoxious in how he can make me forget how fucking hot he can be. And poor dear Sakuraba. It's hard being Justin Timberlake. I would like to pet him, and cuddle Sena and Monta (who would make totally awesome Konoha babyninja), and give sympathetic alcohol to Mamori in the face of overwhelming testosterone overload.

[identity profile] cerusee.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 10:35 pm (UTC)(link)
It's that long? -_- eeeeeeee. O Shonen Jump, you slay my wallet.

I thought Hiruma had a foul mouth in the VIZ release, and although I was unable to find any positive proof of when I picked up a random volume, I did notice that they're at least at the level of "douchebag." It's not "fuckwad," but it's a level up from "creep," I guess.

VIZ rated it OT for Older Teen, though, and it's Shonen Jump Advanced. So at least they aren't trying for a preteen audience.

Mamori is the slightly clueless calm in the whirling storm of masculine ego! She's a freaking hero.
octopedingenue: (CAPSLOCK OF TRIUMPH!)

[personal profile] octopedingenue 2006-09-18 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Nah, I exaggerated for comic effect (I think I actually am 20 volumes behind in Inuyasha). I think Eyeshield's up to volume...18-20? Somewhere in there.

Yeah, I believe Hiruma does say "hell" and "damn" in the VIZ release. Have you read scans at all, or just the VIZ releases? In the original Japanese, Hiruma's most distinctive and oh-so-charming verbal quirk is to use "fuck" (in English) as an article of speech at least every other word. Sena's the "fucking shrimp," Kurita's "fucking fatty," Mamori's "fucking manager"...I think I half-ship him with Mamori just for her potential reaction when first referred to as "fucking girlfriend." (I half-ship Mamori with Sena sometimes too, though in a ohgodnosexyetplease way.) Anyway, I understand why VIZ toned down the swearing, and it doesn't detract from the story...but, but. Most distinctive verbal quirk, man!

Mamori goes above and beyond the call of duty as Obligatory Shonen Female Lead. Truth! Justice! Level-Headedness! All shall bow before her!

[identity profile] cerusee.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)
More flipping through suggests that you are correct about "hell" and "damn." And I've only read the VIZ release, so I've no idea what I'm missing. I can swing 20 volumes. I think. It's a lot like Nodame Cantabile, where between volumes, I tend to forget how much I love it, but man oh man, it always comes rushing back with a vengeance.

Mamori goes above and beyond the call of duty as Obligatory Shonen Female Lead. Truth! Justice! Level-Headedness!

And she looks good in a skirt, too!